STARWEB EMAIL DISCUSSION GROUP (THE SEDG) (Sponsored by Flying Moose Technologies' Starweb Analyzer - http://flyingmoose.cjb.net) VOL. 21 Dec. 6, 1999 CONTENTS Feature Article - Tales of the Black Box Questions - For the Novice. SEDG Web Page URL The Captain's Log - Loyalty, Fidelity... The Swap Corner - The Order Editor Part III Correspondence - A deluge regarding Vol. 20 - STAR WEB for POINTS or FUN by B Rent FEATURE ARTICLE TALES OF THE BLACK BOX Forgive me if some of the descriptions are similar. They may be for the same black box. Not everyone truly understands what the Black Box does and perhaps some of these are the same box. My thanks for all those who contributed. (John Shannhouse, Lee Knirko, Dave Newman, Craig Steel, Paul Balsamo and Donald McEntee). Nothing (This happens a lot, but most of the time you just haven't put the BB in the correct situation for what it would do). Add a permanent connection to the world it is on every turn for 9 turns (turn 1 it added W10, turn 2 it added W20, etc.) It stopped after turn 9 and didn't do anything else. Tour of the Universe - any move order generates random travel through various unconnected worlds. If you survive the ambushes you are returned to your point of origin sad but wiser. Make the key it was one fly through three random worlds (they didn't have to be connected) every turn. Make the key it was on go in another direction (other than the one it was ordered to do). Teleport - Have seen it but not owned it. The key with the BB appears at random as if from a black hole but with the ships intact only to disappear on the next turn. Would dropping the box allow you to stay? Probes - have seen random probes. On some turns it seems the probe isn't working but more likely the world number the BB was to probe is already present on your turnsheet. HW probes - this was great - it probed only HWs at random. Show the HomeWorld of the player that owned it to every other player in the game. Show whatever world it was on to every other player in the game. If it's on a world (not a key) shows a probe of the locations of all 5 Nebula scrolls. Special Art Exchange - it traded places each turn with one of the special arts - the Nebulas, Radioactive Isotope, Lesser of Two Evils, Slippers of Venus or Treasure of Polaris. Switch itself every turn with one of the other 9 of the first 10 special artifacts (the 5 scrolls plus the lesser of two evils, etc.). Sometimes looks like it doesn't do anything if it happens to switch itself with an artifact that's on the same world or key. Diplomatic messages - sending a diplo addressed to the Black box would get you a response. I've never seen this so I can't say what it said. Anyone out there care to elaborate? Paul Balsamo: It's only sent me a DM once, in my first game. I was a collector and asked it through a DM: "Do you do anything else but get me 30 points per turn?" It answered, "Isn't 30 points enough? But yes, I do do something else." I never found out what. Ignore flight order given (except for ultimate destination), and fly via world which corresponds to key carrying actual artifact. Even if the key was ordered only to the next world, it still flew via the 'keyed world'. Could have been used as a spy ship (especially if the world happened to be a home world). I don't know if there was a way to bypass normal flight restrictions and actually use this power to stop on the world that numbered the same as the key. (I lost the artifact in an ambush before I could test this). My very first game was probably the most interesting incident with the Black Box. I had finally got my ships together to haul, and moved virtually all of them to one world with lots of metal just as an empty key showed up with the Black Box. I assumed it had shown up after a meeting with a black hole. I transferred almost all my ships to the key, transferred up some other valuable art (I was an Artifact Collector), loaded and returned to my home world. At least I *tried* to return to my home world. The Black Box drove the fleet neutral, *burned* off one ship, and moved to the next world. The following turn it burned off a ship and moved two worlds. Then burned off a ship and moved three worlds. It was still accelerating at game end. In another game, I did not own it. The owner did not realize that the Black Box gave a free probe of the world it was located to every other player in the game. It was interesting to see how he handled his home world. Speaking of probes, in yet another game the Black Box gave free probes of five distant worlds. Move it to another world and the view changed to another set of worlds. I have heard of the Black Box randomly adding connections to other words. One player was not paying close attention, and did not notice that his home world had grown an extra connection until he was invaded through the wormhole. Box A: Put Box A on key 123 and it will take key 123 on the shortest path from where the key is currently located to world 123. If that path is 7 worlds long, then your key hops through all the worlds in that turn. You'd better have enough ships to survive the autoambushes. An interesting key for assaulting a HW from far outside the enemy's territory. Box B: Is a variant of Box A. Put Box A on key 123 and it will take you through 2 random worlds and then arrive at world 123. The worlds Box B takes they key through may be connected to one another, but because the selection of worlds are random, they most likely are not connected. This box violates the worlds_must_be_connected rule. Also a great box for assaulting a HW. Again, have enough ships to survive auto-ambush. Players that own worlds the Box A and Box B travel through do get a fleet moved on their printout for that world, though Box B will leave them very puzzled. I'm sure FBInc. got more than one bug report because of that box. :) Box C: This box is a nasty one for your enemies. Box C when put on key 123 at world xxx will create a connection between world xxx and world 123. Most players never check a world's connection after they initially discover it. I saw this box used to create a new connection between a world where an assault force was assembled and the enemies HW. The enemy never noticed the new connection and next turn he had an invasion force at his home that entered via the "backdoor" he never new he had. Actually, all of the boxes are nasty weapons. At least C gives you one turns' notice that something bad might happen. A & B don't unless you are aware that the enemy has the Box and what it does. Shows another world on your printout When the B/B is on a key, the world number of the key containing the B/B shows that world on your printout. This is valuable in getting information on an opponent's world if you have keys corresponding to his world. It is easily identified by looking for the world number that the B/B key is on. Creates a chute. The world that the B/B is on suddenly shows the third world away from the world that it is situated on. This is valuable to go directly to the third world without danger of ambush on the intervening two worlds. It is identified by studying the world connectors on the printout for the world that the B/B is on. Most useful function: If you flew it 3 worlds, it would connect the world you started on to the 3rd world for one turn. You could keep the connection up if you sent the key back and forth and back again each turn. You could also extend the connection like this if you did it just right (1st turn: Fly from world A to B to C to D and connect A to D. 2nd turn: Fly (from D) to A to D to A and keep A connected to D, 3rd turn: Fly (from A) to D to E to F and connect A to F). I had this in a partner's game once and it was a big shock to the enemy when they attacked my partner and I was able to get my 30 builds each turn right into the center of my partner's area. It also helped to get my builds to a world 2 out from our enemy's HW. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- QUESTIONS - Can anyone answer these? This one is a bit of nostalgia. If you have played more than 4 games please don't answer (cuzz it isn't really a tough question). In one of my first games I did this to someone. How did I manage it? W11 (22,34,156) [WINKAS] (Metal=3,Mines=3,Population=25,Limit=110,Turns=2, P-Ships=1) (F111[SOMNOS]-->W156 F111[SOMNOS]-->W34) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- STARWEB EMAIL DISCUSSION GROUP - is now available on the web. Look for our new MAPPER'S SECTION on the SEDG Web Page. http://www.accessv.com/~somnos/sedg.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FEATURE - THE CAPTAIN'S LOG 991126.0536-5 By Walter Schmidt walts@dorsai.org Loyalty, Fidelity - Gimmee Those Old-Fashion Virtues, They're Good Enough For Me! (Walt Schmidt - walts@dorsai.org) "Histories are more full of examples of the fidelity of dogs than of friends." - Alexander Pope "Beware he who lets you do his dirty work for him. Beware "him of the clean hands." - anon Let's re-visited the log of two issues, ago. [MUST we?] [Hi Alter - considering some of the traffic that the log generated - yes, I think we must] [FOLKS, let me apologize for the overbea....] [Alter! That will be quite enough - there are several more points that I believe should be made - it's that simple] [AND that "it's good to be king" comment you made last log, has absolutely nothing to do with it?] [ ]. First we have an alliance amongst players. For me that means: Nemo's Three Laws of Alliance 1 - My Comrades - first and foremost! 2 - Myself - a damn close second. 3 - All Others - can go scratch... But as Pope said, history isn't exactly full of examples of fidelity amongst friends. And in many (most?) cases, your allies either come with some form of baggage, or they are really unknown to you. So what can you do to gauge their mettle - gauge how they are working within the alliance. Once the alliance is up and running, but not before, you can always turn to: Nemo's Four Questions of Alliance Fidelity: 4 - Has he ever missed a turn, no matter what the reason? 3 - Has he ever mis-spoke, regardless of why? 2 - Has he ever broken a promise, period? 1 - Does he shy-away from getting his public hands dirty? Now, taken each one, one at a time, and in a non-alliance mode - I would suggest we are all guilty of missing a turn, not always being forthright, forgetting a promise made, and not necessarily approaching combat as if we were "Vikings with a special invite into Valhalla!" And let's not forget about mistakes [as an alliance with which I am presently involved recently learned - sorry guys]. But my Four Questions of Alliance Fidelity (note the new name - just trying to be a tad more clear about that which I meant) isn't really dealing with mistakes or non-alliance mode. I want to emphasize that point. My Four Questions are meant for a quick way to judge how well your alliance is or isn't working together. I've heard more than once that certain players tend to agree with the words of the alliance, but when it comes to the deeds that need be done - well, based on their actions, one might question whether or not your fellow alliance member isn't really "working for the other side." So look closely at your fellow alliance members. Are any of them repeatedly guilty of having the answers related to their alliance-performance, being on the wrong side. Not what they once did in another game, not in the current game, but before the alliance. Rather, once the alliance was operational. If so, then if I may once again suggest: beware _e_s_p_e_c_i_a_l_l_y_ of "him of the clean hands." More on the Post-End Game, next log. - Shai Dorsai ! Nemo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FEATURE - THE SWAP CORNER The Order Editor Part III - Direct order entry from the map; Locating Orders on the Map. Yes, There will be a part IV! Direct Order Entry from the map: There is an order entry box on the Analysis Window's Tool Bar to the far right that allows you to add orders to an open Order file. So you must open the Order Editor to use it. Once this is done you can enter orders that come to mind while you study the World View or Map View without conjuring up the Order Editor window. This is quite useful because it can make a very crowded screen if you have a World View, Map View and your order sheet up at the same time. The Order entry box also supports all the prompting and location functions as the editor. Orders entered from this box are placed after their associated world comment generated in the order template. Orders for allies put in the order entry box will be tagged as coming from the ally by inserting [ALLYNAME] to the begining of the line. Also, if there is not a world comment previously generated one will be put with these inserted orders. Locating Orders on the Map: Typing a forward slash (/) after an order or partial order will cause the World View and Map View to bring the associated world into focus so you see where this order will take effect. This is very helpful if you are using a template and don't know exactly where the key or world can be found. For example: W123 W123B1 W123B1I Typing a slash (/) after any of the above partial or complete orders would cause the World and Map View to select W123. This also works for other types of items, for example: Typing a slash (/) after V10 would select the world where the artifact is located. Typing a slash (/) after F222W12 would select the world where the fleet is currently located. This locate feature also works on orders or partial orders contained within comments. Note: The slash will not appear in the editor or affect the text in any way. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- CORRESPONDENCE Editor's note: There was a deluge of mail regarding Vol. 20 - STAR WEB for POINTS or FUN by B Rent. He sure found a lot of kindred spirits (or touched a nerve ). I print them here for your enjoyment. --------------------------- Paul Balsamo said: Starweb for Points or Fun: Just a few comments about Mr. Rent's rants. If you play any organized game long enough, you are bound to run into a "good ol' boy" network. This is not specific to SW. I've encountered this stuff in every PBM game I've played (especially at smaller companies) and even was shunned at a local game store as the only outsider at a Magic tournament. I have certainly run into my share of prefabricated alliances in my PBM career. And yes, I have been in the situation where some allies in a game that is finishing try to get the alliance to sign up for a new game at the same time to see if they can get in a new game together (probably a lot easier with the decline in the number of players). If you play a game with a group of players that work well together and have fun, I believe it's a natural tendency to want to recreate that again in another game. Unfortunately, that leads to the scenario where a newcomer must join or be killed or find another option. There's no doubt that prefab alliances hurt the game, but they are just a fact of PBM life that no amount of rules changing will solve. It's pretty much impossible for FBI to limit alliances and alliance sizes in Starweb. Think about it. Even if FBI said you can only ally with 2 other players, how could they enforce it? Even if I don't declare someone an ally, I can still work with them (even if I can't win). There are really only four options when identifying a prefab alliance: join it (if they let you), drop, try to ignore it, or create a counter alliance. Your claim of 6-10 allies is pretty unrealistic. I've found that Starweb alliances rarely go over 5-6 players (usually 3-5) and with 15 players in the game, that's 1-2 equal alliances that can rise up to counter the first (even if the 1st was a good ol' boy network). Of course I've seen a 10 player alliance, but that's not normal. I've also encountered a three player prefab alliance in a Multigame (which only has 5 players). As for role playing the characters, that's great for DMs, but you can't base your whole game strategy on it. You should liken SW to a boardgame rather than a roleplaying game. Do you try to act like the hat or the car when you play Monopoly? That's an exaggeration, but I hope you see the point. (Maybe more like trying to play Hitler in Axis and Allies?) Another situation where the alliance situation gets out of hand is the face-to-face tourneys. I have played in many and all I can say is that they become very intense and very emotional and there is almost always these two huge alliances that are competing with each other. You basically fly, drive, crawl, and/or whatever to get there, get nothing to eat, get no sleep, and pay large tourney fees all in the name of fun. (Editor: You've said a mouthful Paul - especially about no sleep!) All this adversity makes for stronger bonds of friendship and more bitter enemies. I've been through this many times (not for a few years now, though) and I'm still not sure of all the whys and hows, but there are people that I've played with there that I count amongst my closest friends (you know who you are) and it would be kinda weird to fly out for a weekend and NOT ally with them against the bad guys. Of course we tried all these scenarios that you heard about where we all AGREE on the alliances or we all AGREE to be pirates, but there is ALWAYS some alliance that breaks the spirit of the pregame agreement and starts making 1 player win from the get go. To that end, you KNOW there will be these two big sides, so why fight it. Tourneys have their own dynamics and you can't compare what happens there to regular games. As far as killing your fun, if you wait until the two big sides are fighting, I have seen a number of loner or player pairs that have an enormous amount of fun playing both or neither side while the big guns don't have time to bother with them. You mention Father Hal Stockert (who is no longer with us). I know he always seemed to be in the good ol' boy network, but he was really just a nice guy looking to give advice and friendship to anyone who would stop and listen, especially new players. You also have to remember that besides the game, a lot of players are just people looking to make friends (and happen to like playing crazy space games). As for taking the fun out of the game with assistance programs and such, don't use them or accept a map from someone who does if you object so strongly. What's fun for one player isn't to another. Although I happen to agree (I'm a guy who figures out by hand what each world should go up in converts each turn), others find them invaluable. Each player has different strategies and goals. Some people play for points. Others try to make friends. If you make Gerry Thompson win a game, he gets mad at you. The differences are what make the game so interesting. Finally, if PBM has taught me anything it's that you usually can't stop or change what other people do. You just have to find a way to get what you want while getting around what others are doing. --------------------------- Edilbert Kirk said: Hi Elliot, The article of the anonymous B. Rent really touched me. I experienced it exactly the way, as he described it. The mystery and fun of the very early turns with no experience and no veterans, that tell you what to do, will never come back. And there is also a problem with the point factories, that was not mentioned. I was member of such a 7- player factory in my last game and it was an easy victory over the rest, that was not organized in this way. But our problem was, who should win? We made an election, which resulted in a tie. Then we decided to hit given point targets for each turn as close as possible. It worked on all turns except the last one :( So there is also a problem on the winning alliance, because some players can't resist to take the win and backstab their allies. (Editor: I hear you - I recently was pushed down to second place by an ally) On the other hand, I don't think, that rule changes are the solution. FBI is a commercial company with a wonderful game (SW) that wins prizes and has a lot of players for many years now. Why change a winning team? Every one of us wishes to change a lot of SW, but probably not in the same direction. So if you make a change, e.g. 80% of the people appreciate it, 10% don't care and another 10% disagree, FBI would probably loose 10% of its clients. But if they leave it, as it is most of them continue and try to optimize their performance within the rules' limits. I have a lot of rule changes in my mind too, but if I were Rick Loomis I would never change a single bit in Starweb. Ah, and Robert Easton, if I had read such statements from you before, I would have been prepared ;-) Have fun! Edilbert Kirk Editor's note: Robert, you are gathering a fan club :-)! --------------------------- Martin Lally said: RENT Article.. RULE CHANGES by the number... 1) Pirates need not own a planet to plunder. EXCELLENT! As an obsessive Pirate I love this. 2) Pirate may plunder when conditions... Nah 3) Increase number of points... Yes! Anything for points. (I won a Pirate game one on a fluke. End score was very low.) BALANCE BY TAKING POINTS FROM MERCHANTS. 4) Limit number of character types.. Yes! 5) Currency... Nah 6) Change end of game to set number CHANGE THE SCORING!!! 7) Change end of game... See 6) 8) Accumulated wealth... Nah 9) New player types.. Nah 10) Better Technology.. Maybe. But this would change total game. 11) New Service... Waste of time... 12) Super Nova etc... Well I wouldn't mind having the PPB wipe the targeted planet and the first ring out...or maybe just damage the first ring 13) Ranked and non ranked games NEVER HAPPEN 14) Not all player positions need to win A linguistics professor was lecturing his class. "In English," he explained, "a double negative forms a positive. In some languages, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However," the professor continued, "there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative." A voice from the back of the room piped up. "Yeah, right." and YEAH RIGHT! I started STARWEB in response to an ad in Analog. But when I started the game arrived on stone tablets. I once got the wrong tables with a different set of rules...there were 10 rules I believe. And, as long as we are doing Science Fiction... Greg Bear's newest novel is DARWIN'S RADIO. Publishers weekly has called in one of the years best novels. NOTE: Best novels not best SF novel. The book should walk with the HUGO. This is a very good book...interesting, exciting, thought provoking and on and on and on. Read the reviews in HTTP:\\WWW.BN.COM including mine... And if any of you FBI guys have not read Mary Russell's THE SPARROW..best SF novel I read in 60 years! Editor: Who was talking about Sci-fi . El I like the SEDG! I just hope it doesn't cut into your joke time. I don't care about your job (you work too many hours as it is), I worry about joke time. Editor (Elliot): Don't worry Martin - the jokes will keep on flowing. --------------------------- Craig Steele said: Elliot: Please feel free to publish this if you think it's worthy, and pass it on to B Rent. You can keep my email address attached, since I don't have anything to hide behind, nor do I care to. Props to B Rent. Although inviting comment/letters, and then withholding your email address strikes me as slightly disingenuous. It's a topic near and dear to my heart as well. I've had a couple of games since I've been back robbed of some of the enjoyment by bumping heads with exactly the sort of behavior described here. The choice is put to you either subtly or overtly, but it's the same choice none the less: EDITORS NOTE: I suggested to B. Rent to disguise his name - as he was fomenting the BACKSTAB with his comments about going to a friendly HW as a merchant with murder in mind :-). Play the point game (either for 'us' or against 'us') or watch your game end prematurely. I think any one who's played enough understands that an organized group of mixed allies can co-operate and speed one of their number to the win. That's been proven many times over. I don't need another lesson thanks; I've won and lost already. Ratings are certainly the culprit, because as soon as you publish any sort of 'ranking' then that becomes someone's measure of what constitutes successful. For me, success is measured in how much fun the game is and was. If I can have a great time, and do well, or even win, so much the better, but plunking my money down isn't about winning, it's about enjoying my leisure dollars. I could care less what my rating is. Elliot's (and others no doubt) use of an alias when they want to 'throw a game away for fun' is a damning indictment of the phenomenon. What that implies is that games played to win, aren't as much fun as games played 'in character', or games played in pursuit of a particular angle of the rules (the hit&run pirate, the world-grabbing merchant, the EB who builds new homeworlds, but doesn't aggressively expand his territory.). [As an aside for anyone who actually does this, if you have another reason - beyond rating protection or 'I'm hiding behind a different email address due to enemies made', then I invite you to share it here, since I fail to see why it would be done] I can recall back to my own early days of Starweb (about 14 or 15 years ago), and the play-for-points phenomenon didn't exist back then. The scourges of the game at that time were groups who 'pre-allied' and signed up for games en mass. Even then, they weren't controlling games for score, they were merely going in with a 'let's attack some one other than ourselves' attitude. There was far more combat back then. I don't begrudge people who can optimize their score within the rules. That's what experience buys you. What I do begrudge is the people who figure that that's the only way the game is 'allowed' to be played, and if you're not playing that way, then you're just the target they were looking for. Now, don't get me wrong, I've played a part in some major alliances, which have won games. And it's fun once in a while. But, it's not the only way to play Starweb, and it seems to me that this prevailing attitude is sucking some of the life (and I don't doubt some of the players - we've all noticed that the Starweb community is getting smaller over time haven't we) out of the game. I don't profess to have all the answers. Some of B. Rent's solutions are workable, some are fanciful. I think what needs to change more is the attitude of the major players - and you guys know who you are - to be more open to fun, and less rigid in your approaches to the game. If I hadn't had a taste of what Starweb was like, and my first couple of games back after my long lay-off were my only experience with the game, I'm not sure that I would still be playing. The experience of 'here's 2/3 of the map, and here's what we'd like you to do for the next 3 turns' is probably disheartening to the new player. Why play when you're given the perception that everything that can be discovered, has already been discovered (in terms of game strategies), and 'this way' is the only way to properly play an Apostle, or a Pirate, or whatever. Part of the thrill of this game is discovering new things for yourselves. (Can a doubly loaded merchant fleet ambush or is it not permitted to fire at all? I don't know, but I'm about to find out). Maybe what Starweb needs is a 'rookie level' game - such as exists for Riftlords which would allow new players to experience for themselves the agony (and learning experience) of a failed strategic attempt, free from all the well-meaning 'advice' from more experienced players. Craig Steel --------------------------- Sharon Wyatt said: B Rent does sound somewhat bitter but he has brought up some good points. He has also brought up some rule changes that Rick should give some serious consideration. All of these have some merit although I think the first three are the only ones that stand a chance of actually becoming part of the game. They are printing new rules though so this would be a good time for Rick to incorporate them. -------------------------- Robert Easton said: Playing in character can be done. Just may not be able to win unless you can avoid the super alliance. Or sometimes you have to break the rule of etiquette of no backstabbing. >Pirate: You can't act like a devious scoundrel laying waste to whatever you come upon and enjoying the havoc you create.< Elliot this sounds like "Billgates". This can be done. Elliot I am sure remembers playing with "Billgates". But it cost "Billgates" as he was wiped out by our super alliance. >>Editor note: For everyone who hasn't played with Billgates benefit - Billyboy was a player that in SW X1233 allied with everyone in the game at one time or another and managed to stab everyone. He blackmailed a player whose HW he had a PBB over - extorting ships then dropped it anyway. Joined my alliance to get to Robert's HW and AI - and the outrageous diplos he would send. He was very entertaining but sadly had to be put down :-).<< Robert again: A Super Alliance supporting a berserker can make this goal (behave like a Life hating robot) achievable. But the berserker wins and the web gets blown to pieces. Thus I hate this position because of the destruction it can leave behind. But it is the only position from which I have won so far. Merchants have an unfair advantage only because we the players allow him to continue to haul all our metal even late into the game so we do not have to use so many of our own ships for hauling thus we let him win. The third style is the warmonger style: Where all efforts by an alliance of players are directed at wreaking the havoc of a powerful conquering army. Points be dammed! Usually consists of pirates and merchants with a possible berserker and/or apostle mixed in. >If you join the pack you're all right but the fun and excitement has just decreased by at least 50%.< I have learned my lesson of said packs. I call them super alliances and will fight them to the very end whenever I find them. They run away with the game and put berserkers in the winner seat almost every time. We as players must be responsible for our own monsters we create in the Starweb games we play. If we do not want merchants to win or super alliances to exist than we must not allow them to prosper in the game. In the end we each decide how the game will go, either by our lack of diplomacy, our apathy, or our complicity. The game Starweb is not to blame for these problems but the way we are playing it. -------------------------- Editor/Elliot says: I enjoyed B. Rent's article as well. I guess the reason for my multiple accounts and aliases are that I like to be in a game with a well-oiled alliance that kicks butt and ranks me well. But I also like to say "Throw caution to the wind" and just play for the joy of the game - to push an underdog to the win or see how many keys I can capture. As to the comments about Assistance programs --- The Starweb Analyzer is far more than that. It's a true graphic front end for the game. It is 'THE INTERFACE' between you and your data. Try it and see - Ok, the commercial plug is over. --------------------------- Well, that's it for Volume 21. Don't be afraid to submit articles or suggestions. They don't have to be long. Address your correspondence to Elliot Hudes at somnos@compuserve.com