STARWEB EMAIL DISCUSSION GROUP (THE SEDG) VOL 3 - April 5, 1999 APOSTLE STUFF PART 1 Apostle Scoring written by Paul Balsamo paulbalsamo@worldnet.att.net and Elliot Hudes somnos@compuserve.com I think this is the position that is most difficult to play correctly and that seems to be why they have great difficulty scoring well. Despite that they have won games. This position definitely needs the help of a good scoring alliance to do well. Let's first review how the apostle scores points. He gets 5points per turn for each world he owns, and 5 more for each totally converted world. He gets 1 point per turn for every 10 of his converts in the game (rounded up), 1 point for every convert killed by someone else (before he declares a jihad), and 2 points for each enemy population killed while on a jihad. He loses 1 point for each shot fired at a non-jihad enemy or neutral. He DOES NOT lose points for dropping a PBB on a jihad enemy neither does he get that 200 point bonus that a berserker gets. So at the very least you can see that an Apostle is going to be very resource hungry. He will need worlds like an Empire Builder and ships for shooting Jihad infidels. So the very first thing from a general point of view that will affect his scoring will be his choice of allies. The other players that require worlds and therefore could eat into an Apostle's point base are Empire Builders and Pirates. If they are in your alliance you obviously have to share the worlds. There are ways to make more efficient use of the worlds such as rotating plundered worlds from the pirate to the others but it is dependent on the way an Apostle wants to play e.g. Martyrs vs Jihad. For Jihad play the Apostle will actually wish to place high population worlds in the Empire Builder's hands. In martyr play he will want as many worlds for himself as possible. Merchants and Art Collectors are ideal allies as they will be happy to divest themselves of all their worlds for the hauling rights or artwork you own. Berserkers similarly won't care about the ownership of their worlds as long as they have the right to blow them up or robotize them later. In addition a Berserker will be a good supplier of ships for kills/PBBs so they make good allies this way also. The EB may compete for ships for industry building and a Pirate will want them for captures. Of course any geopolitical disagreement (WAR) will chew up valuable ships that can be otherwise used for scoring. So the Apostle is a bit of an Empire Builder and a bit like a Berserker when it comes to scoring. And he must take advantage of every type of point he can muster to score well. Lets take a look at those worlds. As soon as the Apostle owns the world the growth will become convert growth. So worlds at about half their population limit are ideal gifts to them as they will fully convert in 7 turns. Worlds at their population limit will never grow converts on their own and will therefore never be worth more than 5 points/turn. If someone wants to give you a fully populated world (or has no choice later in the game) then it may be a good idea to get a berserker to trim it to 50% to allow for convert growth. Later in a game there may be some opportunity for asking a Pirate for worlds he may have plundered 2-3 times. The population growth has been frozen by plunders and they may be the only worlds that can still grow converts naturally. Of course by this time the game may be almost over (not a long SW game) and there may not be time for this. You can also sit over these worlds with fleets to aid conversion. Is this worth it? In my humble opinion - NOPE! Remember that if a fleet of 100 ships sat at a world they will convert about 10 people a turn. A world with 100 population (at it's limit) would need you to sit there for 10 turns (well, actually less due to the compound interest effect of the converts created creating more converts - more likely 7 turns). This is a most inefficient use for your ships in this most volatile warlike game. The average game lasting 16-20 turns doesn't give you the time or ships to do this sort of conversion. No, this type of conversion does help you to convert your own territory quicker and is useful for its spying abilities in enemy territory. Now back to the type of worlds. Do you want the population 200 worlds or the population 50 worlds? Well, it depends on your choice of play - Martyrs versus Jihad. If you decide you are going to do Martyrs then the larger the population the more martyrs you can sacrifice to the cause. Assume you captured or were gifted the world at 100 population on T4 and there are 15 turns left. In 7 turns it has gotten to the population limit and may be 2/3 converted. By T14 it may be totally converted. Its given you 5 pts/turn plus 50 pts for converts over the 10 turns. In the final 5 turns totally converted it's worth 10 pts/turn plus 10 pts for converts. Total worth of this world in the Apostles hands - 200 points. Add to this a friendly Berserker to finish them off at the end and you can add 200 Martyr points. Grand total is 400 points. What would occur if you gave this world to your EB buddy and joined in a Jihad at the end of the game? At 2 pts/turn you would net 400 points. EXACTLY THE SAME!! Seems rather equitable doesn't it? But it's not. The difficulties lay in the fact that you will be competing to own the same worlds as the empire builder. In addition, you are limited in points by the number of converts you actually own. There is a limit and it's quite difficult to kill them all. I did it at the FBI Convention where my Apostle buddy let me eliminate him in PBB fire - he got a respectable 7500 score. But consider this. If you leave these worlds in the hands of another (preferably an EB) then you will still get the 400 points for them in Jihad AND you will be getting the points for owning other worlds that are totally converted. Also consider, you are not limited to your own or allied worlds for your Jihad. I have done Jihad on an enemy and it's been fun to watch my allies gift worlds to the enemy so that all the PBBs fall on the same character. In this way you could have a few dozen worlds with converts supplying you with points while you augment it with Jihad points. For example - you have an empire of 30 worlds with 1000 converts and half are totally converted. You can bring in 325 points/turn. If you Martyr 200 of them on a totally converted world you will only bring in 295 points plus your 200 martyr points = 495. If you instead declared a Jihad and killed 200 people on an allied or enemy world - you still get your 325 points plus the 400 bonus = 725 points. This can make quite a difference to your scoring. So don't believe the rule book when it tells you what a pacifist you are. In fact - give an Apostle some ships and I will show you some nasty combat tricks - but that's another article :-). Another piece of advice - If you are doing an AP on a world for the points you should be at Peace. Otherwise you will convert some of the population and not get the points for the kill. To add insult to injury the shots on your own converts are not on your Jihad target so you will actually lose points for this :-). If you happen to be fighting another Apostle and forget to be at peace while destroying the population in Jihad you could find the whole planet converting to you as the ships fire. Instead of gainging 200 points you could lose 100. Quite a blow when you expected to score. The rules state that if the world is owned by the Jihad target at the end or beginning of the turn you will get points for the kills. This is important as it means you can gift the world to your Jihad target on the turn you fire AP as long as you don't completely depopulate it (say trim it down to 1 population). If you depopulate it you will lose points for the kill as the gift will not be successful after the world goes to 0 population. So instead of a juicy 200 points for a 100 pop world you could lose 100 points for firing at neutral population (not your Jihad target). Make sure you have gifted the world the turn before the PBB attack or complete depopulating R attack or AP. If you do decide to leave a couple population you can gift it the same turn. PBBs - you don't lose any points like other characters for dropping them on your Jihad target. If you have a berserker ally it's better to supply him with the bomb for his 200 point bonus but if one isn't around you can drop it yourself. Remember - on your Jihad target. No, you don't get the 200 point bonus just the 2 pts/turn for Jihad. The early stages of the game for an apostle should be the same as any world hungry position - expand, expand, and expand. From what I've said you can see there are worlds better suited to the apostle's needs, but don't turn down anything (5 points is 5 points). If you run into any fully and highly populated worlds (especially high population worlds) try to NOT convert them even if you capture them. Give them to an empire builder. If you can't and you must visit these worlds (for metal etc) come at peace so you won't leave converts in your wake. You are keeping them pristine for the ultimate Jihad. I've mentioned using your berserker brethren to PBB worlds while you just sit and shoot at population on Jihad. You will get full Jihad points. But did you know that if you let a berserker R attack a world down to a population of 0 you can take this depopulated world and migrate over a convert from an adjacent industry world (that you just happen to own) to create a fully converted world worth 10 points/turn. It's not much but it's better than 0. For Example at a world with 50 population - your Berserker does an R6 (drops population to 2) while you do AP with 4 ships to reduce the population to 0. The next turn it is ripe for the migration. Heck, if you don't have converts next door just migrate a population and convert it with your key. Do you have to Jihad on the enemy? No, in fact a friendly jihad can usually be more profitable than a hostile one. Also, attacking an enemy will require you to lose ships that could have been used to kill population. Sending a PBB to a fringe world with a lot of population can get you some quick points, but an all out assault to conquer territory is usually not beneficial. Fighting another apostle can be very profitable. Instead of attacking, just fly around his area with fleets not at-peace. You will have a chance (depending on the size of your fleets) of converting his converts at each world you leave. If the world was fully converted and you wind up with the converts, you will capture the world automatically. I have been in the enviable position of attacking two different Apostle positions as an Apostle. Each turn I would calculate which empire shooting AP or PBB got the most points. Then I would execute this plan and make all my keys in the other Apostle territory not at peace. So I managed to convert in one empire while Jihading in the other. This requires meticulous attention to the At Peace sign on the fleets because where you Jihad they must be at peace while where you want to capture another Apostles stuff must be not at peace. As for you non Apostle types, I think this shows how deals offered like "I'll let you convert in my area just doesn't mean much. Sure, let me fly a 100 ship fleet around your area, produce 10 converts per turn, and get 1 point for the effort. That just isn't where the points are at. ---------------------------------------------------------- CORRESPONDENCE In Vol. 2 I asked: >> Question: If I migrate a robot to a world on the turn it is bombed, will I gain control of the world? Or will the robot die in attacking the pop or in the bomb? << John Shannonhouse answered: The robot will survive and you will own the world. This is unlike migrating a convert to a world with no population. You will *not* own it with the convert until the *following* turn. ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks John ! Regarding variations in types of alliances and play (Vol. 2) David Benepe said: Elliot: As you know, I've recently enjoyed some success in "grand alliances" as John called them, but I've also recently had a complaint from a victim who was trying to play an EB neutral trader. [Note how I found a link between two of your topics]. Playing the neutral trader as an EB is like putting out a sign that reads, "I'm a target, attack me". At least thats the way I read the sign :o)! The other possibility is that you get sandwiched between two other alliances who have their own EB and don't need you, as happened to me when caught between Elliot and Moose in SW-Z1253. I'll give John Symons credit for doing it successfully in Z1261, but there were five pirates in the game, and the other EB dropped, so his diplomacy consisted of playing the pirates skillfully off each other. Not difficult, since we were tripping all over each other anyway. BTW, I was NOT the pirate John allied with, but I was allied with that pirate.. :o) So, I'd say that the character makeup up the game has almost as much to do with the success of independence vs alliance as does the skill of the players. Some setups, and some maps, just naturally lend themselves to alliance. David ------------------------------------------------------------------ In regards to playing style Dave Lightfoot had a few things to say about players who don't play for points. Dave said: Elliot, I have heard any number of experienced players complain about those who do not play for points. To quote one anonymous person: ". . .The bad part is who ALWAYS ruins the game for others following his "don't play points" philosophy. A few years ago, I compained to Rick Loomis about those kinds of players and suggested he put all of them in the same game!" In my view, the various assortment of players makes the game more interesting, BUT, I would find it very enjoyable to be in an occasional game where the goal is Points! Points! Points! I take great personal satisfaction in finally entering the group of Top Ten Starweb Players listed in FBQ. The latest issue of FBQ finds me in positon #5 of the Standby Top Ten and this is a personal first. My point is: Has there been, or should there be, a round robin elimination tournament for all players in any of the Top Ten lists? These are the people who have proven their interest in going for points rather than playing the spoiler. I think it would be a thrill just to play in a top ten tournament, win or lose. Any comments? Dave Lightfoot < ---------------------------------------------------- Well, that's it for Volume 3. Don't be afraid to submit articles or suggestions. They don't have to be long winded. Address your correspondence to somnos@compuserve.com